8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Mon, 2009-09-07 07:16.
Hi all.
I am fed-up with my 17mm having to take 39 shot for a single exposure virtual tour.
I am considering to buy a wide lens. Everyone on the web talks about the 8mm sigma for VR's. But how about a 10mm-22mm canon lens? At least then i can use the lens for other purposes as well like landscape photography etc.
How many shot do you have to take with a 10mm vs a 8mm lens?
Thanks everyone!
Andre
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Mon, 2009-09-07 22:28.Hi Andre,
You forgot to mention what camera body are you using but given the broad use that you want to have with the lens, I recommended you getting the Tokina 107 Fisheye.
I have the canon 10-22mm but that's not the best option for VR work.
The Sigma 8mm is great but I use it only on Nikon bodies, on the Canon cropped sensors it will not give you the full sphere just with 4 shots unless you use some tricks!
The Tokina 107 is the overall winner for this. The quality is top notch and will work with APS-C sensors you need 6 around + 1 UP and on full frame sensors you just need four around but you can get away with just three.
And if you zoom in you can use it for wide angle work too, not just VR ;-)
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Tue, 2009-09-08 07:11.Thanks Carlos!
I am getting the canon 5d mark11. I currently have the 400d
What are the focal lengths for the Tokina? I haven't seen that make here in SA. And why is the 10-22mm canon lens not the best option for VR work? Is 10mm not wide enough? I really do want the 10-22 canon :(
Thanks
Andre
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Aldo Hoeben on Tue, 2009-09-08 07:55.If you want the 10-22 canon, then buy it. Simple.
But I agree with what Carlos said, the Tokina 10-17mm is awesome. It is awesome on cropped sensors (such as your 400d), but it is even more awesome on a fullframe sensor (such as the 5d MII). Note that you will have to modify the lens to get the most out of it on a fullframe camera ("shaving" the lenshood), but after you do that you can take a 360x180 degree panorama in 3 shots (@10 mm), in 4 shots (@12 mm) or more at the longer ends (to get more resolution). The lens offers a lot more sharpness and resolution than the sigma 8mm.
Note that the Tokina 10-17mm is a fisheye lens, whereas the canon 10-22mm is s wideangle lens. The Tokina will get you wider angles (~190 degree at 10mm).
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Tue, 2009-09-08 09:08.THANKS Aldo!
Now that i know the focal length of the Tokina i am not interested in the canon 10-22 anymore. Basically i want the best lens for VR's + normal photography as an add on.
This is embarrassing but i didn't even know there is a difference between a fisheye and wideangle lenses. Ill google it and find out what the difference is. Ill also google what "shaving the lenshood" means.
One more question... If you want more resolution do you have to zoom in a little (to take more shot) or cant you just take your shots at 10mm but take more shots?
Sorry for all the questions but i dont have the equipment to do these tests myself.
Thanks
Andre
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Tue, 2009-09-08 09:10.Andre,
The resolution increases when you zoom in but of course you will need more shots too ;-)
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Tue, 2009-09-08 11:15.Thanks for the tip on that lens Carlos.
I understand the resolution thing. My resolution on the 17mm lens is extremely high after the stitch.
My main concern is that with my 17mm lens i have to take my shots rotating the camera one 360digree semi down then one 360digree in the middle then one 360digree semi up. (Then obviously the 1 up and 2 down shots). That way I cant have any people or semi moving object in my virtual tours because my view is split up in 3. (dont know if you understand me on that)
My main goal is to eliminate that semi up/middle/semi down proses. I want to take one 360digree in the middle then the straight up and down shots. How wide will be wide enough to do that with a fish eye lens to get the most resolution?.
Thanks
Andre
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Aldo Hoeben on Tue, 2009-09-08 19:47.Your 17mm is probably a rectilinear ("wideangle") lens, right? Also, you are using it on a cropped sensor, which limits the field of view you are getting out of it.
For a quick insight of the difference of rectilinear vs fisheye lenses, see what happens when you enter 17mm in Frank van der Pol's fov calculator:
http://www.frankvanderpol.nl/fov_pan_calc.htm
Also see the difference between full frame ('film') and cropped sensors.
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Tue, 2009-09-08 09:09.Hi Andre,
Beware that the Canon 10-22 doesn't work on the Canon 5D Mark II.
The problem with the Canon 10-22 is that it is a rectilinear lens, not Fisheye, hence the field of view at 10mm is narrow than the Tokina 10-17mm Fisheye.
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Tue, 2009-09-08 14:42.Thanks for the tip on that lens Carlos.
I understand the resolution thing. My resolution on the 17mm lens is extremely high after the stitch.
My main concern is that with my 17mm lens i have to take my shots rotating the camera one 360digree semi down then one 360digree in the middle then one 360digree semi up. (Then obviously the 1 up and 2 down shots). That way I cant have any people or semi moving object in my virtual tours because my view is split up in 3. (dont know if you understand me on that)
My main goal is to eliminate that semi up/middle/semi down proses. I want to take one 360digree in the middle then the straight up and down shots. How wide will be wide enough to do that with a fish eye lens to get the most resolution?.
Thanks
Andre
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Tue, 2009-09-08 14:57.André,
Using Canon 5D and the Tokina 107 @ 17mm you will need 6 around but pointing a little bit down at -15º plus one up.
It's the same if you use a APS-C camera but with the same lens @ 10mm!
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Doug Aurand on Tue, 2009-09-08 16:01.Andre
All due respect to the the Tokina, but with a Sigma 8mm f/3.5 on a 5D MkII with about a 5° tilt up you'll only need 3 shots around.
The tilt up eliminates the need for a Zenith shot and will leave a small "Nadir Hole" on top of the tripod like the one in this image taken with a Canon XTi/400D and a Sigma 8mm, probably a little larger depending on the tilt
http://www.vabq.com/flash/kitchen.htm
On the 21MP full frame sensor of the 5D MKII the Sigma 8mm produces a full circular image with a 180° FOV up and down and left and right with a diameter a little less than 3744 pixels which will make a VR image with more than enough resolution for display on the Internet.
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Tue, 2009-09-08 16:28.Hi Doug,
There is an important difference between the Tokina 107 and the Sigma 8mm (and I have both lenses on my bag).
The Sigma 8mm has 180º FOV.
The Tokina 107 @ 10mm as 192º FOV.
That means there is no need of an UP shot with the Tokina 107 @ 10mm on Canon 5D MkII (or MkI for that matter).
The result will be that you can do the same three shots around without the UP shot and even get higher resolution than with the Sigma 8mm.
And overall the Tokina 107 is better than the Sigma 8mm in image quality and unbeatable in versatility.
Do I look like a Tokina salesman? Sorry, I am not, I just love that lens, although I use it on my Canon 5D @ 12mm and I do four shots around.
Check here: http://www.360cities.net/profile/carlos-chegado
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Doug Aurand on Tue, 2009-09-08 16:34.Carlos
I didn't realize the Tokina had such a wide FOV
Does the Tokina produce a full circular image with 192°+/- FOV up, down, left & right?
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Tue, 2009-09-08 16:57.Doug,
With a full frame sensor you only get that FOV on the longer part of the sensor Up & Down. Left & Right are cropped by the sensor, hence you need a minimum of three images to get the full sphere.
That's why I use it at 12mm, I get a bigger image circle, still with the upper and down parts inside the sensor and I do four images around.
BTW, you have to chop off the lens shade from the Tokina 107 Fisheye to get these higher FOV!
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Doug Aurand on Tue, 2009-09-08 17:08.Carlos
As you know, the Sigma 8mm doesn't need the hood permanently removed like the Tokina & the Nikkor 10.5mm to use them on a full frame sensor.
The small hood on the Sigma 8mm comes off as part of the design
I think a lot of photographers (me included) are very hesitant about modifying their lenses to get the most out of them, which Is why I suggest the Sigma 8mm; it delivers the maximum FOV right out of the box.
Its the equivalent of "plug in & play"
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Aldo Hoeben on Tue, 2009-09-08 19:41.> Its the equivalent of "plug in & play"
I'ld say its the equivalent of "plug and play-with-a-lot-less-resolution-and-sharpness" ;-)
With the Sigma 8mm on a fullframe camera, yes, you get a circular image. But think for a minute what that really means; it means you have a lot of black pixels in your image; unused pixels. You are "throwing away" pixels that you would be using with a slightly longer lens.
With the (shaved) Tokina at 10mm, you can still take a panorama in three shots. You are still throwing away pixels, but less than with the Sigma 8mm. And, in my personal experience, the Tokina is a lot sharper than the Sigma; I find the Sigma very soft (but I have not used the Sigma 8mm F/3.5, only the older F/4).
Shaving a Tokina is not something you do to relax after a day's work, but the results are very much worth the effort.
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by meyer.dre on Wed, 2009-09-09 07:08.Thanks guys! your discussion really helps me with this thread i started.
I think I started the discussion a bit wrong. My main goal of this thread wasn't to find out how i can take the least amount of shots (well almost) My main goal was to find out which lens would enable me to make a tour with with 1 360digree around instead of 3 360digree i am doing with my 17mm.
But my question is answered. The Tokina @ 12mm sounds the best to me :)
Here is a link to a tour i did with a 17mm taking 39 shots for each exposure!
http://1416073559215882119-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.co...
THANKS GUYs!
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by vollmtbi on Sat, 2009-09-26 13:12.>Shaving a Tokina is not something you do to relax after a day's work, but the results are very much worth the effort.
Or use the Shave Service:
http://www.360pano.de/en/tokina-sigma-nikon.html
Regards Tobias
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by virts.ru on Fri, 2009-10-02 14:44.Hi!
What better Tokina AT-X 107 or Sigma 15 mm f/2.8 Fisheye?
The quality of images.
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by badders on Sat, 2009-10-03 13:16.Sigma 15mm f/2.8
360 Tactical VR Ltd - Immersive Imaging Solutions
www.360tacticalvr.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by alexphotof11 on Wed, 2009-12-02 20:53.Hi from México Carlos;
Please help. I am changing my equipment from Nikon to Canon. I have the D300 with the Nikon 10.5mm. for my VR Work, but now I have the Canon 5D Mark II and I would like to do all my work with this camera including VR. The question is;The Tokina 107 that you mentioned is an option for the 5d MarkII body ??. Or what´s the better choice ??
Thanks for yor help.
Alejandro Fernández
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Aldo Hoeben on Thu, 2009-12-03 01:16.It is a great option for the 5D mark II, but to really benefit from what the lens has to offer you have to "shave" the sunshield off.
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by aaronspence on Thu, 2009-12-03 01:48.If you want better quality/resolution than you get with the D300+10.5mm you should go for something like the canon 15mm fisheye or equivalent. I guess the Tokina fisheye zoom could do the same job? It will be the same setup for shooting as the D300+10.5mm. ie 6 shots around + 1 up (+ 1 down if you want to patch the nadir)
Aaron Spence
http://panedia.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Fri, 2009-12-04 10:33.Hi Alejandro,
Basically, we are never happy with what we have, and we always want what we don't have, isn't it?
It's funny, because right now I am considering dropping Canon for Nikon after dropping Nikon for Canon several years ago!
The thing is, those stupid Canon guys, made the AE Exposure Bracketing so bad and useless just to trick us into buying Canon Series 1 cameras instead! The Canon 5D Mark II can only expose three frames at maximum 2EV intervals.
This is what we needed for shooting Kodachrome and not miss exposures in the good old days!
Now we need AE Bracketing for HDR when shooting inside hotel rooms with sunny exteriors and for that Canon says we should buy the Canon 1 series. All Canon 1 series have proper AE Bracketing that is really useful.
But of course Canon says the 5D Mark II if for serious amateurs, not pros, so they opted to cut us out of some features as a punishment for not giving enough money!
So Canon 5D Mark II users need to buy an additional device to plug into the camera (The Promote Remote) just to do what these cameras should be doing by themselves. It's a simply firmware fix, but Canon refuses to do so. The demand for this is so high that supports other companies making these accessories.
And is not just AE Bracketing that is wrong in Canon 5D Mark II, why the hell there is no easy support for GPS?
GPS is a tiny module and could be easily fit in a DSLR, but no, Canon doesn't even provide a GPS connector like Nikon!
This and much more makes me think about dropping Canon and get back to Nikon.
I never been a Canon guy, I have shoot Nikons most of my life and Canon was just a marriage of convenience when Nikon was falling behind in DSLR bodies, but I hope with the D700 replacement, Nikon will again have a smoking gun on their arsenal.
Go Nikon.
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Hans Nyberg on Fri, 2009-12-04 21:53.Carlos
All the cheap Nikon DSLR has no bracketing at all. D40 and D60 for example
The Canons all have it even the cheapest 1000D
Most of the medium Nikons have exactly the same as Canon +-2EV in 3 exposures.
That goes for D5000 and D90
Only the more expensive like D300 , D700, D3 has more but they just have 1EV steps in up to 9 which is just as bad.
And the Canons also have the new 7D which actually have +/- 3.0 EV as far as I know in 3 images and thats in my opinion ideal.
Actually the new EOS-1D Mark IV says this;
Auto Bracketing (AEB): 3 shots, up to +/- 3 stops, in 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments, in all exposure modes. Can be changed via C.Fn I-6 to 2, 5, or 7 shots. Bracketing order can be changed via C.Fn I-5.
I take usually 3 with the +2 as a normal exposure. If I need 1 more I extract it from the Raw.
The 1 EV steps Nikon have is just waste of time taking them. Think about taking 9 images with mirror up. That takes minimum 30 sec per shot.
Where I live the sun has dissapeard before I taken 1 single set.
Hans
Re: 8mm vs 10mm lens for greating virtual tours
Submitted by Carlos Chegado on Sun, 2009-12-06 13:55.Hans,
The best HDR cameras are Canon's EOS 1 series.
I am complaining about Canon's policy of removing some features from sub 1 series firmware!
Check this: http://www.adorama.com/alc/article/2009-HDR-All-Stars
For the moment EOS 1 Mark IV seems to be the king of HDR!
But Canon could easily built those features in 5D or 7D cameras with just a firmware upgrade.
Carlos Chegado
IVRPA Director
www.carloschegado.com