Virtual tour equipment in London

I had the same dilemma just before Xmas, so i bought the 5D full frame for about £1500, and the Manfrotto tripod head for about £300.

The 5D allows any lens you put on to be the size it says on the side of it. So an 8mm is a true 8mm.

I justified the amount of money i spent because i use the camera everyday on non VR stuff as well.

http://ivrpa.org/node/827

This is the massive 38 thread forum post i started at that time about the choice of equipment and its advantages. You will probably find all the stuff you need there.

I still haven't got around to buying the lens yet, so i cant confirm exact which is the best, but i will probably be getting the Nikon 10.5 and putting it on with a the Nikon/Canon adapter plate.

But as for Jessops...

I was in the Newcastle branch killing time last Monday between meetings, and asked if they had or could get an adapter plate to put any Nikon lens on the canon body. The manager then laughed and said its impossible, and his side kick said to me "you obviously know nothing about photography as that is not possible and if you can buy one, it will just be something made in a shed".

I didn't even argue back, as there is no point in getting a debate with a nobody shop assistant, but I'm looking forward to the day i actually get around to buying the plate and the lens, i will probably force him to eat it.

Whilst I'm on with this though, does anybody know where you can get a "GOOD" adapter plate from, which is accurate and has the best connection pins to join the lens and body.

Regards
Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

Robert
To do full 360°x 360° spherical or cubic images from just 2 fisheye images requires a lens with a Field of View over 180°

iPIX built their product around the Nikon Coolpix cameras when that line of equipment was a "prosumer" product. The 5400, 5700, 8700, 8400 and 8800 models used a lens converter designed for the line called the FC-E9. It produced a full circle fisheye with a FOV of 190° on the 5400 and 183° on the rest. With 3-10° of overlap all the way around its possible to produce a fully spherical or cubic image from just 2 shots.

You can sill buy refurbished Coolpix cameras on eBay for about US$500 and the fisheye lens for US$200. Agnos.com makes a rotator that works specifically with the FC-E9 lens for US$230.

Even though the Coolpix line of cameras were very good, they just weren't as good as any similarly priced DSLR today. The 8 megapixel 8700 was US$999 when it was new. These cameras produce a quality more appropriate for the fast turnaround needed in Real Estate Virtual Tours. I understand selling Real Estate in the UK is very different than in the USA

The Nikkor 10.5mm lens produces a fisheye that is 180° from corner to corner on a Nikon. Its called a "Full Frame Fisheye" because it fills the whole image frame, with no black around the edges. It usually requires 6 photos around plus a top and bottom shot to completely fill the sphere/cube. Here's a link to a set of photos, 6 around and a top shot, on the 360Precision website you can download and stitch with the demo version of most of the stitching software. I used the RealViz Stitcher Demo. These were shot with a Nikon D200 and the 10.5mm. There are more sets on the homepage of their website

http://www.360precision.com/360/downloads/d200/d200_jpeg_1.zip

The Sigma 8mm (there's a new f3.5 and the older f4) usually produces a "hockey-rink" shaped fisheye, some times called a Cropped Fisheye. With the camera in portrait position, the image is round at the top & bottom and flat on the sides, with some black beyond the curve. The curved part of the image is 180° accross, top to bottom. You usually need 4 shots around with the camera in a portrait postion. There's a smaller "hole" at the top and bottom of the sphere/cube than with the 10.5mm that can often be edited out in Photoshop without a top and bottom shot, depending on whats on the top & bottom. I've read that tilting the camera up 15° will eliminate the top "hole" and a "tripod cap" will cover the bottom hole and tripod.

iPIX's website is still online and has sets of images you can download or copy to test stitch at the link that follows. They are all shot with a Nikon D100 with either the Nikor 10.5mm or the Sigma 8mm f4. Unfortunately none of them have top & bottom shots so there's a top & bottom "hole" on all of them when stitched with RealViz Stitcher although the Sigma 8mm "hole" is small. If you click on the Source Sample image for each lens, it links to a page where you can download/copy sample images.

http://www.ipix.com/products_iis_samples.html

The only set of source images that's missing is for a lens that was sold by iPIX as the "iPIX 4.88mm". I've always suspected this was a rebranded Coastal Optics fisheye since it is also a 4.88mm. It is still available with a Nikon or Canon mount. Their website is www.CoastalOpt.com. This lens has a 185° FOV and would theorectically be able to produce a full spherical/cubic image from just 2 photos, but its US$4,500

"Full Frame" digitals like Ian's 5D (are there any other "Full Frame DSLERs?) change the FOV and image size with both the Nikkor 10.5 and Sigma 8, but I'm not sure it gets over 180° with either lens to make 2 fisheye stitching possible. Ian?

Hope that helps you.

Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM

Roberto
I joined IVRPA to learn more about virtual imaging, so its only fair to pass the info on.

Sounds like a solid affordable setup

Have you heard of the Nodal Ninja rotator. It has a good reputation and is only US$216. Its what I'm going to start with when I move up from my Coolpix 8700.

Double check what your ordering & pricing with the Manfrotto rotator, there might be an additional piece of equipment you have to order to shoot the Zenith and Nadir shots. I don't remember exactly

You should be able to do 6 + 2 with that camera/lens combo. I'm planning on a Canon XT or XTi with the Sigma 8mm and am assuming I can get the 180° "equator" with 6 photos while the camera is in a portrait position plus 2 shots for the top & bottom if the 15° tilt up doesn't eliminate the need for the Zenith shot.

A good solid tripod is best. My iPIX setup came with the Manfrotto 3001, but I later got 3011 that was heavier and a little more solid. I use a 10lbs barbell on a short chain & "s" hook to hang from the tripod as a balust to keep it very steady & solid while rotating the camera. This is especially helpful on deeply padded carpet and soft ground

Editing out the tripod isn't that hard with the Coolpix set up or any other set up for that matter.

I generate what's called a Cubic Strip in iPIX Interactive Studio, its the 6 faces of a cube with the "warp" removed, all in one image. Then I just used Photoshop to copy and paste pieces of the nearby floor over the tripod or use the Rubber Stamp tool to copy "floor" over the tripod. You can do the same by creating the 6 cubic faces separately like RealViz Stitcher does, just edit the tripod out of the bottom face, then use the 6 faces, including the one that's edited, as source images to output a QuickTime .mov file. Just save the "faces" as TIFFs so you'll maintain the image quality.

Floors with a uniform texture, like concrete, blacktop, carpet with no pattern and grass are easy. Something with a pattern like brick, tile and carpet with a pattern takes a little practice. But the better you get at Photoshop, the better you'll get at virtual imaging.

Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM

As doug just said excellent set up, but dont use Jessops.

They are probably the most expensive way to buy things in the UK, as there are many other companies out there which they cant match.

8mm sigma lens
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230120239543
This is £363 including delivery and he will send it to you marked as a gift, so you pay no import duty or VAT on it. His 16,510 positive feedback say this nice and clear :)

But from Jessops it costs £600
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s35764/0/Lenses/Sigma/8mm-f-and-35-EX-DG-Circular-Fisheye-(Nikon-AF)/details.aspx?&IsSearch=y&pageindex=1&comp=n

There are no differences in warranty, as once the seller sells you it, either Jessops or EBay guy, you then deal with Sigma, who cover their guarantee in any country.

So we have saved you £240 already :)

Now the tripod head
The guy i bought my head from (the same one you want) from eBay lives in the UK so you have no problems with VAT or import duties

EBay guy £356.45 incl delivery etc
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110118102265

Jessops £424.99
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s28836/0/Tripod-Heads/Manfrotto/Multi-Row-Pan-Head-(303SPH)/details.aspx?&IsSearch=y&pageindex=1&comp=n

Camera
Jessops for body with the 18-135mm lens £688.90
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s35925/0/Digital-SLRs/Nikon/D80-%2b-18-135m...

Now back to the same guy selling the 8mm lens on eBay £626 including Taxes and delivery for the exact same camera.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230055925404

Saving you
£240 for the lens
£68 For the manfrotto head
£62 For the camera and great lens
= £370

With the money your saving, add another hundred quid or so, and get the 5D instead, you wont be sorry. here is one here from the same Honk Kong guy up there.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230119442168

But all these items i have worked out I have included the large postage prices, but I'm sure you could make a deal with him and get it all under one package, and save a fortune in postage, giving you another £150 or so to spend, which may even mean for the same price you were buying the whole kit from Jessops, you could get the entire kit from eBay but with the Canon 5D, one of the best cameras on the market, even used by extreme pro's for photo shoots.

The sigma 8mm lens is the same price whether for Nikon or Canon, and both suppliers i mentioned about do them both

By that took some writing :)
Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

My first experience...

so I went today to jessops and I used the a Nikon d80 with a sigma 8mm... I took for shots in a row (90 degrees each) and then 1 shot at the zenith and 1 at the nadir....

now if you see the results you are going to laugh for 2 hours... basicly now I have new doubts...
1. But when I shot the nadir I still see my legs so how they will disappear :) ?
2. Every image that I got has black edges (because of the lens) should I eliminate them somehow before trying the stitching
3. I tried to stich the image with 3dvista stitcher but there is an error message the image have not the same size, impossible to stitch... what it could be, I just took identical shots without changing any settings of the camera...
4. Do you know any other software for WINDOWS that I give the 6 faces and produce the cubic panorama ?

thanks again...today I had my first experience and it was not the best.... can I show the shots I took somehow ?

Roberto
PTGui is inexpensive (about US$90) and can stitch the set you have. You can download a demo version to try out. Its a little difficult to figure out at first, but doesn an excellent job of stitching.

RealViz Stitcher Unlimited/DS is a more robust product, outputing several formats & file types directly, but its US$700. They have a downloadable demo version too.
Their less expensive Express 2 ($119) and Pro ($349) have fewer features but are less expensive and can stitch from that camera/lens combo. There are downloadable demos for each

easypano Panoweaver is another stitcher that can use images from the Sigma 8mm lens. They have a downloadable demo

Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM

Have you got any webspace, you could pop it up for us all to have a giggle at :D

If you havent any there are loads of free companies out there like geocities, etc.

Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

Ok to take the piss simply go to
http://www.glasstemptation.com

this is my website under construction...

I bet nobody can do a virtual tour from the images I got, let's start the competition let's see who is able to do the best virtual tour from those images... :)

Any advice will be very appreciated....

Thanks again
Roberto

If you have not figured it out from your results, here's a tip: don't use a flash with such a wide lens. You will not be able to light the scene evenly.

A quick attempt can be seen here. As they say in the business: "Close enough for Real Estate work." ;)

As Aldo's already pointed out, if you want to use the flash you're going to need a lot more overlap. Also spend a bit more time honing the nodal point (no-parallax point, whatever). With enough time and at least some overlap you can make anything work, but the easiest thing to do is to get that nodal point dead-on, get a multi-row pan head and work from there.

Also, you can get yourself out of the down shot by taking two and moving so you're not in the same place both times.

HTH,
Landis

Great work Landis, not bad for first time shots taken in a shop, handheld with no tripod head and with the flash on.

pretty much everything that could be wrong with a VR tour is wrong, and it still went together ok (Kind of hehe)

Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

PTgui and a bit of help from the warp transform in Photoshop CS2.

I can reveal - I was the creator of the video you saw.

Not necessarily - my first thought on hearing about the video is that it was Eric Rougier's 'Make a QTVR in ten minutes video' as seen here.

Ian Wood
Landmarks of Britain
Azurevision

P.S. Out of curiosity, have you thought of becoming an IVRPA member?

But they did let him try the camera and lens in the store and there are increasingly few places that can let you do that. I can't help but think its worth buying the camera from them if there price is reasonable just to support that.

You must work as an employee and not self employed, as you wont be in business for very long with that kind of approach, to spend £200 extra just to try an item.

If anybody wants to pay me £200 to come and try my camera for 10mins, your more than welcome, ill even drive down and meet you in London for it as its only a 3hrs drive from my home. Ill even bring the Manfrotto head and a range of lenses for free.

If i could do that every day i would be very happy, £1000 a week to drive 6hrs per day :)

I couldn't imagine going into a camera, phone, GPS, or any other electronic shop, and them not allowing me to open the box and have a play with the item i was going to buy.

Also

Jessops share prices have gone from £1.40p at Christmas to £0.18p per share at the moment and its still falling.

The security of the shop still existing in 12 months when your warranty expires is almost zero. Fair enough Jessops will prob go online only, and loose the high street shops, but then you may as well just buy from the internet in the first place.

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareChart.asp?sharechart=JSP&share=JESSOPS_PLC_ORD...

For you guys from the rest of the world, Jessops is the Uk's largest photography high street brand which has been around since my grandfather bought his first camera as a photographer just after the second World War. They have high street branches in nearly every town and city in the UK.

I think even though most of us on here on this site work and make our income from the internet, i think there will be a serious problem very soon with employment and high street shops in a very short space of time on a global level.

Think whats happened in the last 10 yrs, now imagine the next 10.

Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

Come to think of it, this would probably be a hellish investment. Because i highly doubt that they will go bankrupt, so if they closed all their high street branches and sold the properties, and then became online only. But as they own a major groups of online photography websites, it will then allow them to push their share prices back up.

The shares cant really go any lower than they are now without becoming bankrupt, but as they are still buying other companies

http://production.investis.com/jessops/regnews/rnsitem?id=1159948803nRNS...
http://production.investis.com/jessops/regnews/rnsitem?id=1139900448nRNS...

They cant be that bad financially.

Ian

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

"to spend £200 extra just to try an item"

Who said anything about £200 more? Jessops website list it at £688 for a d80 and 18-135mm lens. So its more like a £20 premium. Obviously if the store wants £200 more and wont budge then you don't buy.

I'm glad you have had luck shopping, but perhaps I'm just in a more rural area. Getting store to let you try a sigma 8mm lens would be unlikely around here. Even having a camera working so you can put your own card in is not that common.

British retailers are difficult but you do have consumer rights and can enforce them through the small claims court if you are prepared to. They mean that even after the warranty period is over you can still demand the goods last a reasonable amount of time. What reasonable is can be a matter of debate though. You may take the view the rights are not worth the hassle of enforcing them.

Its true though I did not consider the possibility of Jessops closing up.

All in all though I stand by what I said. If he buys from Jessops at £688 it will be a reasonable deal and reward their customer service. He can get a uk lens from Jessops if they price match tecno or direct if they don't or he can get it from one of the hong kong sources mentioned.

You are all entirely welcome to your own choices of course.

Never buy a memory card from Jessops of course, or a usb printer cable from pcworld.

He can get a uk lens from Jessops if they price match tecno or direct if they don't or he can get it from one of the hong kong sources mentioned.

I believe that Tecno.co.uk, is owned by Jessops

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/detail/?display=discussion&code=cotn%3AJ...
(the guy who posted that misspelled Tecno.

It is owned and registered by JPI who also built the Jessops site
https://www.4dreg.com/whois.php?domain=tecno.co.uk
http://www.jpi.co.uk/portfolio/ecommerceretail.htm
And not sure but i think JPI stands for Jessops Photography Interactive

In fact because of this conversation, i have been doing a little digging around and found this forum
http://lse.co.uk/ShareChat.asp?ShareTicker=JSP&share=JESSOPS_PLC_ORD_2.5...
Which is basically many of the shareholders complaining about the extreme poor performance of Jessops.

But they also say that £500K of stock went missing recently, and that Canon haven't been paid for quite some time and are owed substantial debts. Also that many accounts are on hold, and a camera supplier is refusing to supply anymore, I cant remember which and cant find it in the forums anymore :(

But yes your right, i was still yapping on about the 5D, as there is a major difference between jessops prices and Internet prices for that camera. But its a fair price for the 80D

www.NewWorldDesigns.co.uk
CMS Systems, Web Design, 3D Animation

www.QuickTimeVirtualReality.com
Object, Pano, Multinode, QTVR, Flash, Java

Maybe he could just do some comparison shopping and if there's a "brick & mortar" store with a competitive price, decide if having a real place he can walk into with a problem is worth paying a little more for.

You guys sound like typical "geeks" who believe there's only one "right" answer to any question or solution in all situations.

And you got so wrapped up competing over where he should buy a D80 you were still posting to that thread several hours after Roberto's new thread; that he already ordered a Coolpix 8700, FC-E9 lens and Agnos rotator.

Relax, breath, take a downer ;)

Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM