Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
For you real estate photogs out there, I just read an interesting article about a local real estate staging company that charges $300-$600 per house to come in to a home to assist with properly setting a house (uncluttering and de-personalizing). It got me thinking about the justifications for good photography after the staging process is complete. It's one thing to stage a house, but the other major attraction is good photography to showcase the house. Wouldn't most folks be willing to pay more dollars for good photography if they've just paid to stage the house? Perhaps a shift in business model is needed to increase revenue. Instead of going after the Realtor, why not focus on the seller?
Just a thought. . .
Hoyle Koontz
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Hey Hoyle:
A client of mine is a full-on staging company, but they also do a lot more than "traditional" stagers. They're also way, way above the $300-600 mark you mention... and they are extremely busy.
You can see their site at www.nurturesourcedesigns.com . There should be some cheerleading market-ese PDF downloads there, written by the principal.
They focus on "selling" their services to the realtor(s), who then either solo or in tandem with NSD recommend their services to the client (seller). The seller is the one who ends up paying for the staging/renovation services, and the realtor keeps their own marketing fees separate.
I have never heard of a seller being insulted by a suggestion of staging. They are usually approached from a bottom-line sensibility -- wherein they can outlay some cost now for the staging, and recoup it + more in the final sale.
All that said, even with a multi-thousand dollar staging fee, NSD finds it difficult to include my fee for 360° photography (and I won't come down, without a guarantee of high volume). Even the seller chokes on the photo fee, having fallen into the same "anyone can do that" trap. I'm not on hand to sell the photo services, so I have no control over that.
Cheers,
Patrick Cheatham
--
CheathamLane | spinControl:VR
Berkeley, California
VR Photography
Web, Flash & QuickTime Development
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Patrick
There are some sellers who are bottom-line oriented and will invest to get more money back, but lately I've done still photos for several estate sales, and the executor, who is usually a beneficiary, won't spend a dime. Not even a maid service. The Realtor is paying for my photos.
Believe it our not, one $300,000 house sat empty for months because the kids were too busy to finish closing the estate. A pipe froze in the unheated house (our winter nights get below freezing) and did lots of water and mold damage becasue nobody knew it happened for weeks.
The beneificiaries (the adult children) had the the carpet, water damaged drywall, etc removed. They treated for mold and kept the rest of the $75,000 insurance settlement. They sold the house "as-is" with the living room, master bedroom, entry hall and a bath showing bare concrete floors and almost all the walls in those rooms being bare 2x4 studs.
I photographed it!
I see just too many sellers who are living beyond their means and don't have the money, or credit card limit left, to have professinal staging done. The Realtors will suggest basic staging and de-cluttering, free. One of my Realtor/customers just walks in and mercilessly pulls all the refrigerater magnets and whatever they're holding up and tossed them in a drawer. She's pissed off a few sellers and sells US$30 million of real estate a year
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Hey Doug!
Sure, there are always extreme cases in either end, and always people who don't want to spend a dime no-matter-what... Those are the people/clients I avoid. ;-)
But, I think it short sighted if one ignores the potential for money to be made by tagging photography along with staging. My staging client is doing quite well and growing even, in a real estate market that's not quite so hot as it was two years ago.
The only issue I have is that I'm not able to help sell the photo services... and I fear my client, even as much as I educate them, doesn't _really_ see the value in my service (ie, thinks I'm too expensive) -- opting instead for the friend who comes in with a Powershot for $50, shooting floor-level wide angle images. Which, ultimately, may be what serves them best. (sigh).
Patrick Cheatham
--
CheathamLane | spinControl:VR
Berkeley, California
VR Photography
Web, Flash & QuickTime Development
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Patrick
In a market as big as Berkeley/San Francisco/Oakland with the some of the highest home prices in the country, a few Home Staging services could do very well.
Albuquerque's 750,000 people in the metro area may not be enough
Actually the slowing real estate market it why my business has jumped lately. Homes aren't "selling themselves" anymore, so the Realtors are spending money on marketing. Last year I did just under 100 real estate tours for the whole year. I've already done 67 this year, have 2 I'm processing today and have orders for 7 more in hand. (I raised my Still Photo & Virtual Tour prices May 1st and nobody has said a thing) Plus my 2 Hi-Resolution (US$100-130 per image) projects this year are real estate related.
You could target the Realtors and sellers of over a million dollar homes. They have some money to work with. Even if the selling agent cuts their side of the commission from 3% to 2%, they've still got $20,000 potential income. For every multiple of a million, multiply $20,000.
But you hit the nail on the head, most people are short-sighted and have no imagination. "If everybody else isn't doing it, why should they?" is the thinking.
The only way you're going to convince your Staging Client is if you offer to do a before and after shoot "on spec" and show him how to use it with his Realtor customers. Host it on a website you control and provide a him a link, so after 6 months if he doesn't buy it, you can take it offline.
Basically, if you're not willing to take the same risk you're asking him to, invest time or money without a guaranteed return, he's not going believe you.
That's why my VirtualAlbuquerque.com approach has worked so well. I don't charge anthing for the 2 scene tour and their page on the site for the first year, until I prove it will get them business. Then the page is $125 a year and they still don't get the images for their site. The VirtualAlbuquerque.com is on track to have 25,000 visits and 55,000 pages viewed this month.
Just so you know, I'm a licensed real estate broker and a full member of the Albuquerque Metropolitan Board of Realtors since 1993. I actually made a very modest living selling real estate at one time.
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Hey Doug:
Well, I suppose I opened my own can of worms, since I'm not really a shooter in the real estate market. :-P
Definitely, the higher end homes is the way to go, for any shooter. Or stager. The reason I mentioned that my client is doing so well as a stager is because 1) they're doing very well in spite of the softer homesale market, because they market to both the seller and realtor the benefits of using staging as a sales tool, and 2) similar to vr photographers who may need to go after multiple markets, they offer services other than their main one (staging) in order to make themselves more useful.
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The only way you're going to convince your Staging Client is if you offer to do a before and after shoot "on spec" and show him how to use it with his Realtor customers. Host it on a website you control and provide a him a link, so after 6 months if he doesn't buy it, you can take it offline.
Basically, if you're not willing to take the same risk you're asking him to, invest time or money without a guaranteed return, he's not going believe you.
-------
Actually, my relationship with my client is in its fourth year; we talk, and often, about how we can best help each other to make some money. That they don't use my photo services very often anymore is due to the simple fact that our respective businesses are growing in different directions. As everyone knows, my target client is not in the real estate arena... And I do not do work on spec anymore.
Cheers,
Patrick Cheatham
--
CheathamLane | spinControl:VR
Berkeley, California
VR Photography
Web, Flash & QuickTime Development
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Patrick
Then you don't have an "issue" with your client.
Or you haven't sold him of the the value of your product, after all, he doesn't need before & after virtual images of every home he stages, just one will work to promote his service.
According to Sun Tzu's Art of War, you should first look to yourself for an explanation of your failure, not your client.
Let's see, you want the work but don't do "spec" work, charge a high price and can't convince hime of the value, its definitely his fault?
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
War Shmwar :-P
Hey Doug:
At my client's site (link above) you'll see links to plenty of work I've done for them; from the Web site itself through to many 360s/virtual tours.
I wasn't implying there was fault anywhere, and most especially not with my client -- but I did say I saw us as growing apart in the ways I can provide them with photography.
You're right, I've probably not convinced them of the value of what I have to offer photographically... but I'm not pushing it because I get little joy out of shooting for real estate.
I am able to convince many other clients out of the real estate arena, who are more in keeping with my style of shooting and what I enjoy shooting.
Too bad you won't be making it to the IVRPA conference -- yours would be a good voice to hear during the real estate panel (and other places too).
Patrick Cheatham
--
CheathamLane | spinControl:VR
Berkeley, California
VR Photography
Web, Flash & QuickTime Development
Whining about Realtors
Patrick
I was definitely interested in talking about the real estate market for virtual tours.
The only problem is I would probably have pissed off a most of the photographers who don't do real estate work, complaining the Realtors won't pay their price.
In a Yahoo Group about virtual photography I got tired of them whining and shut them up by pointing out what it was they were saying; on one hand they wanted the work, but on the other they wouldn't do what it took to get it. That is if the Realtors would pay their price, they'd hold their noses and do business with them.
I couldn't figure out why they kept whining about not getting work they really didn't want????????
Its like a Cadillac dealer complaining because someone who can only afford a Chevrolet, isn't buying a Cadillac?!??!?!?!
Sorry, you're in California, that should be a Lexus and a Toyota ;)
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Whining about Realtors
Realtors in General are just not willing to spend money on virtual tours but will spend 3 - 4 times that amount on print advertising...In my area I attribute it to this...
Sorry in Advance Doug...you wont like this ; )........
IPIX and Circle Pix low balled the market and offered bad, low quality tours and poor customer service, not to mention the "Fishbowl" look of IPIX and early Circle Pix tours...This turned off most realtors in my area because their clients hated the look. Whats more, companies like Visual Tour and Real Estate Shows tell realtors they can do their own tours for $9.95 each (Real Estate Shows) or 29.99 per month for unlimited tours (Visual Tour) when in reality these are just slide shows with music..not true immersive VT's. Visual Tour also says you can make your own panoramas hand held with no Tripod ...its that easy. Needless to say the results suck.
It can be a hard sell at times and is a constant education process, I find once they get sick of all the wasting of time with do it your self tours they will spend the money.especially after seeing the results. I usually ask what they spend on a 1/2 page AD in a local paper for the weekend...then point out that after the 2 day run it is gone but my tour is online for the life of the listing.
Here is an example of my viewer (Yea..I know shots are saturated...thats the way the client wanted it...cool house though !)
http://www.dmcdigitalmedia.com/hostvt/millstream/index.htm
Still Real Estate is a high volume game but I can usually upsell a 4 scene tour to include Hi Res Stills for around 200-300 dollars.
Regards all !
Dennis
Re: Whining about Realtors
Dennis
They'll spend money on what gets them results they can measure somehow.
Home magazines generate phone calls from potential buyers, so the Realtor know it gets results. Having an open house without an ad in the local paper is usually a waste of time, having one with and ad generates visits by potential buyers. They can measure the results.
I've been doing iPIX Tours since 1999 and don't know what "fishbowl" look you mean. Here's a tour I just posted
http://media.homestore.com/H253DERU.htm
Does it have the "fishbowl" look?
Circlepix is just a cylindrical projection with no perspective correction or de-warping like this one an agent I used to do work for just had done.
http://www.circlepix.com/tour.htm?id=500629&refurl=
I will agree, iPIX was bad at helping the photographers that used their software get better at photography in general and virtual tours in particular. I asked many times.
iPIX, Circlepix and the photographers oversold how a virtual tour bould beneift the Realtors; somehow just having a tour on their website, Realtor.com and franchise site was suppose to generate a stampede of buyers for the house.
Needless to say, it just didn't and doesn't happen.
What I've done is provided the tools and suggestions to make the tour work for them;
1. I include an "iPIX Virtual Tour, The Online Open House" sign rider that I put on the real estate sign in the yard when I leave the house. In other words, we don't keep the tour a secret from the neighbors. (Statistics show on average, 1 of the 15 homes on either side of the home for sale and the 30 across the street will put their home up for sale in the next 90 days) My agent's yard sign stands out from the others in the area with the sign rider handing from it.
2. I provide a simple table tent made out of card stock to put next to their flyer stand in the house that says "Visit this home anytime...24 hours a day...7 days a week...at www.The Agent'sWebsite.com. I just customize it and print it out of MS Word when I make the tour. It reminds people who visit the house they can come back. virtually, anytime they want. And if they have a house for sale, they wonder why they dont have a virtual tour
3. I suggested a small real estate company add an iPIX logo to the photos of the homes with tours they advertise in their half page ad they have in one of the local real estate magazines, since half of the 12 homes had one of my tours. The ad said visit www.CorralesRealty.com to take a virtual tour of these homes at the bottom. The first month they put the logos on the front photos, the traffic on their website DOUBLED!
4. I provide the iPIX EGallery of each Tour on a Mini-CD. The EGallery is like a little Macromedia Director Projector that plays the tour image with a photo of the agent, their name, company, phone number and e-mail address nest to the iPIX Images. I suggest the agent take it with them on their next listing presentation to show what a tour looks like without having to hunt one down on the 'Net. They'll be the only agent the seller interviews that gives them a Virtual TOur on a CD. Here's a link to one
http://www.kellyandbryan.com/media/ipix/510264/510264.exe
4. I have a booklet I made in MS Word that I give to new RE customers called "iPIX Virtual Tours for Realtors" that shows the benefits of iPIX over other virtual tours and how to get more benfit from them.
5. I post every tour to Realtor.com, the RE franchise website of the agent's company, into the local MLS for distribution through IDX to the other local RE sites for my customers. And they don't have to do a thing!
The reason some Realtors are soured on Virtual Tours isn't the image quality of 5 or 6 years ago, its what the virtual tour provider/producers didn't do then and aren't doing now; provide a service that really benefits the Realtors with more listings, more buyers and more sales.
Just a Virtual Tour on the Internet is of very limited value.
Add real value that generates sales and you get more customers that will pay more for your service.
I've always thought VR photographers need lessons in Business & Marketing 101 as well as Photography
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Whining about Realtors
Hi Doug,
It sounds as if you have quite a good marketing plan and a great reputation in your area. I disagree on a few items though.
1) Image quality of 5 or 6 years ago in my market area DEFININATLY soured realtors, early CirclePix tours were not cylindrical at all...they were one shot system parabolic mirror tours. shot from near the ceiling and absolutly dreadful. The IPIX tours out here were horrendous with poor customer service so much so that cold call clients almost alway ask me " Its not Ipix tours your selling is it ? In my area Ipix has done more harm than good in promoting VR
2) Just a virtual tour on the net is very useful if, as you said, the realtor has a sign rider saying VIRTUAL TOUR and if they provide a url or link to the tour in all the print advertising. Again,, I speak from my market experience in CT. and I shoot 150 - 200 Real Estate tours per year.
3) I looked at your tour and while it is one of the better Ipix tours I have seen.... Yes, it has that "Fishbowl look" and distorts considerably as a scene comes into or exits the view window. The images are very soft with blooming/ haze around the windows as well..... That said ...let me say this : )
Please understand this is not an attack : )....just critisisim.. You obviously can take and produce a properly exposed image but the 2 or 3 shot system and the IPIX viewer just cant compete with the newer technologies. Try your Coolpix 5400 or 8700 in a 12 shot cylindrical pano, and check out the immervision player (Flash and Java!) Free download. Very flexible and you can make your own viewer !
FYI ....I was a Sales and Marketing guy in the corporate world for 15 Years, so I do agree VR photogs need to be more than just photographers.
Dennis M. Carbo
Re: Whining about Realtors
Hey Hoyle!
I get your M.O. now -- start a thread, and let us hash it all out for you... :-P You off drinking Pina Coladas?
:)
Patrick Cheatham
--
CheathamLane | spinControl:VR
Berkeley, California
VR Photography
Web, Flash & QuickTime Development
Re: Whining about Realtors
:^)
Great comments! The memorial day weekend was quite busy for me, so I'll try to read all the comments more thoroughly tonight. Glad I could stir the pot!
Hoyle
Re: Whining about Realtors
Interesting discussion, and covers issues I've dealt with as well. I do a lot of work with mainstream "cheapo" realtors, and it's very true that this stuff has to be combined with marketing. I'll share some further thoughts later...
Re: Whining about Realtors
Dennis
It sounds like there was a really bad iPIX photographer in your area 5 or 6 years ago. But based on statistics from the National Association of Realtors, I doubt most of the Realtors in business today ever had anthing to do with them. Statistic: 80% of the people who get their real estate license and become an active agent are out of the business within 2 years. And that doesn't mean all of the other 20% stay in the business after 5 or 6 years.
I agree with you about the One-Shot systems, when they put the mirror at the ceiling the point you view from isn't where a person would normally see from and looks really strange to me.
I've not done enough with the idea of the agents driving traffic traffic to their sites by pointing out there's a tour of a home. I put a "Promo" flyer in my deliveries and the "Don't keep your Virtual Tour a Secret" is a running theme. Sometimes a flyer with scan of the page from the Homes Magazine that has the iPIX logos on the photos of the homes for sale, sometimes a collection of different real estate company yard signs, all with my iPIX Sign Riders.
I think the "fishbowl" you see in the images in the link I had in the previous post is just the "perspective" as it apprears in a small image. What I've noticed is when the same images, or larger versions, are displayed larger the "perspective" that is applied to the image by the viewer, especially as it rotates, is much less noticeable. On this link there are 2 version of each image, one 300-400kb file for quick loading to a 320x240 size and a 800kb-1MB one for display at 640x480. http://www.do222.com/iPIXIndex.htm
This same "perspective" distortion isn't unique to iPIX. It happens when you zoom back too far in QuickTime, the PTViewer and I assume the PurePlayer from Immervision. Unless you set a limit on the zoom. Landis Bennett just used this link in another post and if you zoom back, you'll get the "fishbowl" you're talking about. Zoom in and it goes away. http://360geographics.com/blog/index.php?entry=entry050904-212634
One reason the standard real estate images of mine you looked in the http://media.homestore.com/H253DERU.htm link at was "soft" is its highly compressed, all being less than 300kb. This is where too many VR photographers don't get that they can provide different quality levels for different prices. They want to do their best work all the time, but complain that Realtors won't pay $100-150 per image. I'm currently producing images at 3 specific levels or tiers of quality; real estate images are less than 300kb with less touch up, hotel quality (and other non-Real Estate business) follows the standard Marriott hotels has for virtual tours with image dimensions specified and no more than a 400kb file, and my Super-Size Image intented for 640x480 display (that will go up when I move to the 8megapixel camera). And I have 2 price levels, real estate and my higher quality work. The images on the do222.com link were $130 each for 10 scenes and I gave them the 11th free
I definitely have "bloomimg" problems with high-contrast areas of my photos, window edges especially. I've read this is a characteristic of the Coopix cameras. I'm hoping the Canon XTi and better Sigma lens I want to buy will eliminate the blooming and cut down on the "glare"
I'm actually taking customers away from the "official" Circlepix photographer at the Coldwell Banker office I work out of. If you looked at the Circlepix link I used, the image is just a stitched cylindrical projection in a "strip player" with no perspective correction. Three agents have commented that my iPIX images aren't "warped" like the Circlepix images are. And they keep ordering from me even when they have wait 10 days to 2 weeks for me to get to their house.
Doing the cylindrical projection you're suggesting isn't an option here in Albuquerque. Ceilings are a really big deal in Pueblo and Territorial style homes becasue of the vigas, wooden beams, latillas & tongue & groove wood. The full 360°x 360° images iPIX produces show the ceilings, a cylindrical projection won't.
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Whining about Realtors
2 cents from somebody who is new to realestate "rich content" presentation...
We're over in France, setting up a service providing quality photographs, high resolution QTVRs, Floorplans, multilingual copy-writing all of this rendered for the web and print...
I've been out meeting realtors to find out the potential of the venture.
One of them, a Sotheby's franchise in one of France's highest profile city, first ever comment about QTVR was this:
Panoramas ? Horrible ! they distort and devalue our properties... we've been approached by several reps selling us services and kits (iPix, previsite, egg shape mirrored lens extension?) and we don't want to have anything to do with them
This person is the admin at the agency - handles all the visual communication - and her comments goes along Dennis's post.
If the industry was promoting higher standards, like this "Louisa May" tour, or the WorldWide panorama, i guess we would be a hell of a lot busier with QTVR services... oh, and notice the size of the pano in Louisa, needs not be huge either !
QTVR is a fantastic medium of presentation for real estate, but there is a need for quality that, until now, hasn't become mainstream... not in the mind of realtors anyway, and they do have a point.
Re: Whining about Realtors
Hi Laurent,
Contact me at dcarbo@mac.com if you would like some samples ...I currently work for 9 Sotheby's offices doing Virtual Tours and His Res Marketing Photography. It may help sway them if they see another Sotheby's franchise embracing the technology ! They are currently my biggest Real Estate Customer here in the U.S.
Dennis M. Carbo
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
This might work for selling to the staging companies as a commercial product. I would think that this is a harder sell to the home sellers. There bottom line is different than an agents. My belief is that the money would come from the agent or the staging companies since they are a commercial business looking to make money and grow as a buisiness.
Robert Thien
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
This is something I have been thinking about. How can I get a staging company to offer my VR services as part of their package?
Somehow getting to piggy-back on their marketing to the realtors and other clients they deal with(sometimes they are setting up for parties, vacation homes, etc...)
They offer a specific service that deals directly with immersive environments. They set up the environment, we capture it for them, produce output(CD-hosting-whatever).
For an extra fee, when the realtor gets an MLS#, the tour could be uploaded via VRGuild or such.
So not only are they selling the stage to the walk-ins, but also providing the internet audience access.
Sounds like it would be a good hook up with a busy staging compnay.
--------------------------------
Shawn Steigner
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Shawn
Staged or unstaged, the beneficiary of a virtual tour is the seller and the Realtor.
The seller is the "true" buyer of the tour, paying for it in the commission on the sale price.
But you have to convince the Realtors they will benefit too, since they're definitely going to write the check for our work, with no guarantee they'll get paid because the house may not sell.
Think about it, the Realtors don't get to set the price of the product they sell, have little control over how well kept it is and when the sellers refuse to fix the little leak in the roof that's "been there for years", any sale they had falls apart.
A few agents make the seller pay for the tour, but usually only if the seller won't price the home where the Realtor thinks it will really get some offers.
Or when they've reduced their commission and any extras other that the "3 P's" the seller has to pay. The "3 P's" are "Put up a Sign, Put it in the Multiple Listing Service and Pray"
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Re: Realty staging costs vs. photography costs
Hoyle
There's a woman with a Home Staging business here in Albuquerque.
I've shot some of the homes she's done.
There's some but not that much demand for the service.
Making US$300-600 usually means she has to provide some furniture, plants, artwork, etc.
Here its usually vacant homes and new homes that want this service, mostly to rent the furniture.
The 2 problems are (1) if a Realtor suggests the house needs professional staging, they're essentially saying the seller's house is ugly and the owner has terrible taste in interior decorating. Often true, but not a great way to build a relationship. (2) Most seller's are too cheap or just don't have the money on hand to pay for the service.
One of the reasons the inexpensive, flat-fee, limited service real estate service model hasn't caught on more is the $500 up-front fee. A fee that's not refundable if the seller over-prices the house and no buyer is foolish enough to over-pay for the house.
The big reason sellers pay the Realtors 5 or 6% of the sale price, is because the money comes out of the proceeds of the sale of the house, not out of their near empty checking or savings accounts. The Realtors and their companies take all the risk of spending marketing money up-front with no guarantee of a sale. Like paying for a Real Estate Virtual Tour ;)
Douglas Aurand
Albuquerque, NM